Gay Marriage

[d0nk`]

This is a topic debated alot in my "Political and Economic Systems" class, and i was wondering where you all stand on this issue. Do you oppose it? Are you for it? Also, explain why.

[JC Denton]

Personally, I feel marriage should follow this definition (stolen from MW): "the state of being united to a person of the opposite sex as husband or wife in a consensual and contractual relationship recognized by law." Now, don't get me wrong, I'm not saying those of the same sex should be forbidden from entering a "relationship." But, it's not marriage. Call it a civil union if you want. However, I do feel they deserve the same rights as a married couple.

[tonymark01]

my personal opinion is, why does anyone give a shit? are you gay? ok good this doesnt apply to you. I really couldn't care less what a gay person does with another gay person or with his or her religion.

[Doorbasher]

If you love another person that happens to be the same sex, great. More power to you. Why should I care about their sexual preference? And more importantly, what right do I have to say "no, you can't get married"?

[d0nk`]

I think that they should have a right to choose what they do with their life. Marriage or Civil Union or whatever else you call it, its their choice, and not the governments. If you're going deny people their persuit of happiness, then that is unconstitutional. By getting a gay marriage, then they are also getting the benifits that other married couples do. Allow people to do their own thing.

[Tobalaz]

If you want to call it marrage for man/ woman relationships and a civil union for same sex couples, it shoud exist and still offer the same benifits to all parties. If you don't give that equality, then you're descriminating, and that's just wrong.
I'm straight, but I have gay friends. They are just as human as you or I and show the same love to their partners that you or I would to our own. Does it mean these people are any less deserving? I think not, even if their preferances fall outside outside of our traditional thinking.
Times change, traditions change, to not accept change is being narrow minded. All things change, and in all fairness, we should allow these people the same rights and privlages we hold dear.

[tiamat2]

You realize that Catholics and other christian sharing religions are against abortion....obviously. My question is that cant the gay community and religion get along?? I mean here's the gay community, a sect of people guaranteed to never have an abortion. And the catholics and christians are just tossing them aside. If they could look past their differences you'd think they'd make natural allies.

Just leave these fucking people alone for christ's sake. However i do assume that its natural for a religion to be persecuted in its early times so they must return the favor to the oppressed.

The thing it is that its unconstitutional to base your decision on gay rights by using the Bible. By doing this your breaking separation of church and state.
It is very funny and yet somewhat entertaining in how we use the Bible to justify something, however when its not in "our best interests" we dont refer to the Bible then.......... hypocracy, its everywhere.

[JC Denton]

You realize that Catholics and other christian sharing religions are against abortion....obviously. My question is that cant the gay community and religion get along?? I mean here's the gay community, a sect of people guaranteed to never have an abortion. And the catholics and christians are just tossing them aside. If they could look past their differences you'd think they'd make natural allies.
What does gay marriage have to do with abortion :rolleyes:?

[tiamat2]

Im saying that they have like 2 issues to conflict on and everything else to agree on. Its sad how they cant get along.

[tonymark01]

I'm Catholic and I'm for abortion, I debate with people all the time about it at my church. I do the same with this whole gay marriage thing.

You could try to like read everything that tiamat said in that paragraph before you roll your eyes at him, Kirk.

[SupermanJnk]

I'm Catholic and I'm for abortion, I debate with people all the time about it at my church. I do the same with this whole gay marriage thing.

You could try to like read everything that tiamat said in that paragraph before you roll your eyes at him, Kirk.


If you are Catholic and you are for abortion, and gay marraige, maybe you should try reading the Bible.

[tiamat2]

Ok, can you tell me where exactly it says abortion is a capitol sin??

I believe it says being gay is an abomination to God, then again so is the athiest (dont know if i spelt that right) going against the divine spirit if he/she was "created".

However one cannot live life without having certain issues with the Bible.
I mean it pretty much states that you shouldnt fornicate.....but im sure all of us (maybe have) doesnt mean your going to burn, but its something that God frowns upon. Thats my biggest beef with the Bible.

Also, if you read the Bible doesnt it preach "loving your neighbor"????
So why do we have to limit homosexual rights?? I dont know, but we should stay out of their business. I mean are they saying that heterosexuals cant marry? Last time I checked that was a HELL NO!
I am by no means gay-or will ever be gay. But it is there right to defend there lifestyle.

The Bible isnt to instruct in my opinion. More to simply point and say, "yea thats the right way to go, now you'll find your way its easy"

[JC Denton]

Ok, can you tell me where exactly it says abortion is a capitol sin??
Abortion is murder, and murder is a mortal sin (not a capital one). The capital sins (if you want to go by the bible) are: Pride, avarice, envy, wrath, lust, gluttony, and sloth. My feeling on abortion is this, there shouldn't be any. If you get pregnant due to your own handy work, deal with it. If you're raped, don't want the child, whatever, wait until it's born and put it up for adoption. The government "will" help you with your medical costs if that's what you're worried about. Don't just kill an innocent child because it's inconvienent to you.

[SupermanJnk]

Long winded post!!


You realize that Catholics and other christian sharing religions are against abortion....obviously. My question is that cant the gay community and religion get along?? I mean here's the gay community, a sect of people guaranteed to never have an abortion. And the catholics and christians are just tossing them aside. If they could look past their differences you'd think they'd make natural allies.


Homosexual females could still have abortions, it's just not as likely, they are not immune to rape. As you state in one of your later posts, which is in here somewhere, homosexuality is an abomination to God, you just stated why "religion" and the gay community do not get along. If Christians (I find it funny that you put catholics and Christians in seperate categories since Catholism is a branch of Christianity.) were to look past their differences all the time, we might as well just not be Christians. Being a Christian is to be different then the rest of the world. I'm not saying that when you are a Christian you are better then other people, everyone sins as much as the next person. I'm saying that they have a higher standard thats been set for them, granted you don't have to be a Christian to have a high standard, but generally thats one you set yourself, with Christianity the standard is set for you, by God.


Just leave these fucking people alone for christ's sake. However i do assume that its natural for a religion to be persecuted in its early times so they must return the favor to the oppressed.

I find it funny that you say for christ's sake when refering to this. I also find it funny that you put homosexuality into the category of religion.
There is not one place in the Bible where it says that it's okay to be Gay. When God created the universe He had created man, and said it was good, then He created woman from man, and again said it was good. He did not create man from man, and say it is good. So right there you can tell God intended for Man and woman to be together, not man and man, or woman and woman.


The thing it is that its unconstitutional to base your decision on gay rights by using the Bible. By doing this your breaking separation of church and state.
I'm sick and tired of people misinturperating seperation of church and state in the constitution. Seperation of Church and State was put into the constitution because they didn't want a Church State like they had in England, a church run by the government. It was never intended to be used to remove God from the government. The founding fathers founded this nation to be one nation under God. Now people want to say that God isn't part of the country. I'll tell you this though, If you remove God, this country will go down the tubes.


It is very funny and yet somewhat entertaining in how we use the Bible to justify something, however when its not in "our best interests" we dont refer to the Bible then.......... hypocracy, its everywhere.

Yes hypocracy is everywhere, it's called being human. I take the Bible literally, I'm not saying I'm perfect and I never do anything it says not to, I'm saying that if the Bible says it's wrong, it's wrong. I don't try to sugar coat it by saying stuff like; well everyone does it so it's not that bad, or that homosexuallity is okay because thats their sexual prefference.


Ok, can you tell me where exactly it says abortion is a capitol sin??

Exodus 20:13
Thou Shalt not Murder.
I think that sums it up there.


I believe it says being gay is an abomination to God, then again so is the athiest (dont know if i spelt that right) going against the divine spirit if he/she was "created".

However one cannot live life without having certain issues with the Bible.
I mean it pretty much states that you shouldnt fornicate.....but im sure all of us (maybe have) doesnt mean your going to burn, but its something that God frowns upon. Thats my biggest beef with the Bible.


Actually it does mean you are going to "burn" Sin seperates you from God, unless you accept his son as your personal lord and saivor, then you will indeed "burn" You can't have sin and be in the presence of God. As for everyone doing something, that doesn't make it good. Sin is sin, God sees all sin the same, in God's eyes the sin of killing someone, is the same as the sin of stealing. Sin seperates you from God.


Also, if you read the Bible doesnt it preach "loving your neighbor"????
So why do we have to limit homosexual rights?? I dont know, but we should stay out of their business. I mean are they saying that heterosexuals cant marry? Last time I checked that was a HELL NO!
I am by no means gay-or will ever be gay. But it is there right to defend there lifestyle.

Matthew 22.37-40
Jesus replied: "Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the first and greatest commandment, and the second is like it: Love your neightbor as yourself. All the law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments

Loving your neighbor is talking about a type of love known as Agape, which is unconditional love. This means that you love them despite the fact that they are gay, This does not mean that you condone homosexuality it just means that you don't judge them for it.




The Bible isnt to instruct in my opinion. More to simply point and say, "yea thats the right way to go, now you'll find your way its easy"

It should. If you are reading the Bible, and you are attempting to follow the "right way" then your opinion will be aligned with that of the Bible. If it isn't then you obviously are not following the right way.


As for the whole rights things. If you want same sex couples to have the same rights (tax breaks and such) as married couples, then you better start giving them to roommates too.

[tonymark01]

well you know, to say "seperation of church and state" is somehow "not literal" would totally invalidate your views on Bible quotes now wouldn't they? No wait, lets see what you say. "I take the Bible literally." Ok. Now for what I think. I take the Constitution literally. Now lets see which should have more weight in the United States of America. You know what, I'm thinking the Constitution! Amazing how that works, you know you have the whole "pursuit of happiness" and "equality" stuff in there, but when it comes to our big and bad Bible HOMOSEXUALITY IS BAD MMKAY. You know there's a lot of things that scripture says is bad and you shouldn't do. But somewhere you need to draw your own opinion, don't let religion get in the way of your faith.

If by "roommates" you mean heterosexual couples that have had a child together and live in the same residency, they already do.

[Tobalaz]

I was told (while in Christian school) that our freedom of religion, was the freedom of the Christian religion, which is total BS. Ben Franklin was an athiest. So when we say freedom of religion, it extends to all religions. We have to keep law and religion seperate or else you begin forcing religion on people which was one of the big reasons we revolted in the first place (taxes being second). Our Laws and our Values should be seperate, but our values shouls mirror our laws, plus fill in the gaps. Now to institute or have a law because the Bible says breaks down the seperation of church and state. Grant it, if this country were completly ran be Christians right now, I would be one of those persecuted. Likewise, if this country were run by Muslims (extremists), our wives would always be wearing potatoe sacks and veils and we wouldn't be allowed to shave. Just because someone feels their religion is the correct one, does it give them the right to force it upon everyone else?

[tonymark01]

Bingo.

[tiamat2]

The separation of chruch and state was to provide a non partisan point of governmental leadership. My god look at France when the cardinals were running the power house of that country almost 300 years ago. Man that was a real God filled country (sarcasim) at any rate YES this country was founded on the principles of A GOD....not THE GOD. So once again everybody has a freedom of religion. And as for God being removed from this country, wow its not like he isnt now. Dont think that even if he will be "gone" that their wont be good people. Hell, my best friend is a great person, fun, educated, and easy to get along with. But he is an athiest.
So what does that tell you?

A little off topic.........

This isnt meant to anger anyone, but can you tell me if your so against abortion, then why were you for war in Iraq??? People are dying, O yea i know, its that pro-life conservatives love you while your unborn, they'll do anything for the unborn. But once your born.... your on your own...
Boy, doesnt that make you feel :loved: .

And I quote " pro-life conservatives want live babies, so they can raise them to be DEAD SOLDIERS".... i found that quite interesting.

[tiamat2]

After i got done with my last post i realized something. Wasnt Hammurabi's code based on "Ten commandment" type laws. Really you dont need God to keep order, but he does help ill say that.

I believe the code came some time before Mt. Sinai, not sure on that one.

But if i was to make my own laws in this country, without having any previous knowledge of the Bible, my laws and the commandments would look about the same. Why, basically the commandments were common sence laws.

What this proves: Good people, rulers and order were maintained before the institution of God's law.

[Haysoos]

Tob, our country IS run by christians, or as my co-worker lieks to say, the Christian Riech. To the point though, heres some thoughts:

1. The bible can be taken ay way you please, same with the constitution. BUT, unlike the bible, the constitution was written like a contract and therefore meant to be taken literally, whereas the bible is a compilation of stories with no intended way of taking it. Personally, I an not religious. No offence to anyone here, but I think 90% of christian/catholic people should die because they are simply sheep and will shit on anyones rights if they feel "god" justifies it. Freedom of religion. That means I dont have to follow your silly book.

2. Church and State need to be seperate. Why? Because there is not one single church that represents the people, therefore there should be no church in state. For those that think otherwise, thank you for oppressing me and everyone that isnt of your religion. How would you like the State teaming up with the satanic bible? It's just like prayer in schools. If you think a prayer should be in there for your god, then there needs to be one for Satan, Budda, Allah, etc. If you just want YOUR god in our State, then consider this a war. I hate people that act surprised that anyone would want the church out of it. It's not MY god, so keep him to yourself.

3. Gay marraige. Me, my boss, and his brother had a long talk about this, and here is my final conclusion. No gay Marriage. No Marriage. If you want to get married at a church, go ahead, then go to the clerks office and pick up your civil union certificate.

I've found that 50% of the arguement against gay "marriage" is vocabulary. For people like my boss, its not about the rights, its the name. Marriage is a religious thing. Marriage comes from the bible and is defined as the union of a man and a woman. Fine, call it a civil union and give it the same rights. Problem is, the civil union we have doesnt have the same rights. So lets kill 2 birds with one stone: Remove the word marraige from the government. Since church and state need to be seperate, why should the government honor this religious institution? So now the govenment recognizes "civil unions" which is the commitment of two people to each other. So a civil union between a straight and gay couple would be identical except the changes that are required solely due to anatomy.

4. Abortion is murder by church definition. But before the first trimester is over, the fetus is not more than another organ in the womans body. I think abortion during the first trimester, or even just the first HALF of the first trimester is fine. I'm sorry, just because a baby is made doesnt mean a baby is born. Hell, some people should be FORCED into abortions because they would only fuck up the baby's life. But thats opinion and not enforcable, so we'll let the idiots make up their own minds.

NOTE - I wrote this post 6 hours ago and left it on screen and went out. I have no idea why I didnt post it.

[tonymark01]

o mah guh pat you are totally right and mirror everything you say for what i think

[tiamat2]

Tob, our country IS run by christians, or as my co-worker lieks to say, the Christian Riech. To the point though, heres some thoughts:

1. The bible can be taken ay way you please, same with the constitution. BUT, unlike the bible, the constitution was written like a contract and therefore meant to be taken literally, whereas the bible is a compilation of stories with no intended way of taking it. Personally, I an not religious. No offence to anyone here, but I think 90% of christian/catholic people should die because they are simply sheep and will shit on anyones rights if they feel "god" justifies it. Freedom of religion. That means I dont have to follow your silly book.

2. Church and State need to be seperate. Why? Because there is not one single church that represents the people, therefore there should be no church in state. For those that think otherwise, thank you for oppressing me and everyone that isnt of your religion. How would you like the State teaming up with the satanic bible? It's just like prayer in schools. If you think a prayer should be in there for your god, then there needs to be one for Satan, Budda, Allah, etc. If you just want YOUR god in our State, then consider this a war. I hate people that act surprised that anyone would want the church out of it. It's not MY god, so keep him to yourself.

3. Gay marraige. Me, my boss, and his brother had a long talk about this, and here is my final conclusion. No gay Marriage. No Marriage. If you want to get married at a church, go ahead, then go to the clerks office and pick up your civil union certificate.

I've found that 50% of the arguement against gay "marriage" is vocabulary. For people like my boss, its not about the rights, its the name. Marriage is a religious thing. Marriage comes from the bible and is defined as the union of a man and a woman. Fine, call it a civil union and give it the same rights. Problem is, the civil union we have doesnt have the same rights. So lets kill 2 birds with one stone: Remove the word marraige from the government. Since church and state need to be seperate, why should the government honor this religious institution? So now the govenment recognizes "civil unions" which is the commitment of two people to each other. So a civil union between a straight and gay couple would be identical except the changes that are required solely due to anatomy.

4. Abortion is murder by church definition. But before the first trimester is over, the fetus is not more than another organ in the womans body. I think abortion during the first trimester, or even just the first HALF of the first trimester is fine. I'm sorry, just because a baby is made doesnt mean a baby is born. Hell, some people should be FORCED into abortions because they would only fuck up the baby's life. But thats opinion and not enforcable, so we'll let the idiots make up their own minds.

NOTE - I wrote this post 6 hours ago and left it on screen and went out. I have no idea why I didnt post it.



DAMN, me and you see eye to eye on alot of things.

[tiamat2]

Haysoos way to take this ugly bag of snakes and lay em out straight.
Well met my friend.

[d0nk`]

@beans: flip around and oppisite, or exactly on the nose of things? :P

[Kashmir]

The divorce rate amongst heterosexual couples = 60+%
The "divorce" rate amongst gay couples = 34%

Go figure.

Let them have a civil union with all the rights of a regular marriage.

As for abortion, its a woman's right to choose. Having the baby and giving it up for adoption is not always an easy answer. We have entirely too many kids waiting to be adopted and never becoming so because they arent babies. The state doesn't always step in to help cover the costs of the bills as well as there is the cost of prenatal care before the birth of the baby.

For those that use it as a regular form of birth control, then yeah, they should be "forced" to use birth control and by that I mean have Norplant (5 year birth control) or an IUD (8 year birth control) implemented and if they still continue, then she should get her damn tubes tied or have her legs bolted closed.

[WANKSTER]

by 'seperation of church and state' our founding fathers simply created a government system that would not impose/support a certain religious over another. when the church lacked the organizational skills to officialize marriage, the state stepped in. The legal approach is no, since the church itself doesn't allow gays to marry.

On a religioius aspect, get the hell out of dodge. gayness and homosexuality is completely against all church teachings and the Bible itself.

Lastly, once Im married and have children, I surely dont want them being taught that its ok to be gay in the schools, etc.

I think it's time for us Americans to stand up for our country's future and say no to gay marriage.

PS:I don't have a problem w/ gays in particular, just keep it to yourself (especially the flamboyancy shit, thats getting out of hand)

[tonymark01]

hey, i've got a question. if every single word in the bible was totally made up, false, untrue, written by some punk that wanted to mess with people, how would your values change?

and i'd like to know where the hell you got "when the church lacked the organizational skills to officialize marriage, the state stepped in. The legal approach is no, since the church itself doesn't allow gays to marry." from

[WANKSTER]

cause that's the truth ^^^^^ thats the way it happened. church married people (thats why there's a priest duh)

[Tobalaz]

Is it right to discriminate by color, sex, or height? No.
Then why discriminate by sexuality?
When people don't understand something, they fear it. Fear leads to hate, hate leads to discrimination.
So before you judge, take a step back and put yourself in some one else's shoes. How would you feel beind a sceond hand citizen through many peoples' eyes just because your beleifs are different? I'd be pissed, hell, I get pissed because I'm Italian American and at times people hold that against me.
You may not feel a lifestyle is right for you, but don't condem like some religious zealot/ biggot. We all are different in one way or another, and all deserve equal rights and privlages. We all deserve to have our own opinions, and should all be reasonable adults when discussing topics like this. Those that can't demonstrate a reasonable level of maturity around here get either banned or gagged, so please keep that in mind for future referance.

[tiamat]

Yes. the word marriage is a religous institution, therefore it must be respected... so how about we come up with another word for gay marriage if most people are going to bitch about it??

I'll tell ya, Christianity has really been oppressing "unpopular" believes over the past thousand years. Why you say?? Becuase when christianity was finally organizing as a religion a couple thousand years ago, it was discriminated against, by hebrews, muslims, and budhists...and I have nothing against those religions, personally I believe their all very strong and caring when you get there non "extreme" people to represent them. Anyway, seeing as how they were oppressed at one time, they feel the need to do so now, its a vicious cycle. However if you allow church doctrine to dictate the writing of law then your doing what France did with the Catholic chruch....and we all know where that when. Besides if your religion does write the law, its a void Amendment and therefore CANNOT be passed, due to that little separation of church and state that were all so familiar with.

"Of course religion is right, its always right when you look at it from the inside."

[tiamat]

Another thing I forgot...sorry.

The Bible was wrote by 40 "inspired" men. Yea, people get "inspired" to kill in the name of god. What makes you think, that the bible should govern the law. Thats almost like taking 40 people in the present, having them write down voices they heard in a dream, and then trying to enforce them as law to the masses....doesnt make much sense to me.

Also, if you look at religion, God is one of the leading causes of death. For example, look at the crusades, I mean my god, im sure half the insurgents over in Iraq dont like our god. Whose to blame them either??

There has been, always will be a constant holy war in the world. I think it would be quite funny to someday find that the Bible was totally false.
I dont know how we'd find out....but in one way or another.

[Tobalaz]

Yes. the word marriage is a religous institution, therefore it must be respected... so how about we come up with another word for gay marriage if most people are going to bitch about it??
Call it a civil union, after all, the government only started officialy recognising marrages with certificates after taxes were instituted, so give everyone a civil union certificate (for the purpose of wills and taxes), and if the still want a legit marage through the church, then by all means more power to that couple, just make sure that all couples get those rights regardless of race or sexuality.
I'll tell ya, Christianity has really been oppressing "unpopular" believes over the past thousand years. Why you say?? Becuase when christianity was finally organizing as a religion a couple thousand years ago, it was discriminated against, by hebrews, muslims, and budhists...and I have nothing against those religions, personally I believe their all very strong and caring when you get there non "extreme" people to represent them. Anyway, seeing as how they were oppressed at one time, they feel the need to do so now, its a vicious cycle. However if you allow church doctrine to dictate the writing of law then your doing what France did with the Catholic chruch....and we all know where that when. Besides if your religion does write the law, its a void Amendment and therefore CANNOT be passed, due to that little separation of church and state that were all so familiar with.

"Of course religion is right, its always right when you look at it from the inside."
And I'm so sick of "Because the bible says" as a reason, there was a seperation of church and state for damn good reason, let's keep it that way. I'm tired of justified hate and discrimination through religion, we all deserve the same rights and privlages through a non biased government.

[tiamat]

I agree with you 100%

[Scale]

I don't see why anyone should care if two people want to get married.

We don't really know why we're here, and we're all different, but if we're all here for one thing, it's to be happy. If someone finds something that makes them happy, I am happy for them that they are happy. And if I find something that makes me happy, I expect them to be happy for me, if they care at all. Everyone should just relax, leave each other alone, and let people find their own happiness in their own places. I think we'd have fewer problems as a society that way.

I'm gay and I don't care about gay marriage. I don't like the idea of marriage and I don't aspire to ever being married. I don't see what's so special about it, and I can't see myself honestly expecting to be just as happy with one person years down the road as I am now. However, if people get something out of it, I think that's awesome. My sister went through a lot of hell at home until she was able to move to England with her boyfriend, who she met on a forum for bird watchers. They are getting married today. No wedding or anything, just going to the courthouse to sign a paper and then have a fun night out. She's having a great time over there. I am very happy for her, and if I ever got married to another guy, I'm sure she'd be just as happy for me.

[Tobalaz]

Well Simon old chap, whether you chose to get married one day or not, it would be nice for you to have that option, both as a seal of love toward your chosen partner, and the tax break that comes with it.

[tonymark01]

way to not answer my question. is there some sort of fear you have in relation to the bible?

[WANKSTER]

I'm sick and tired of people misinturperating seperation of church and state in the constitution. Seperation of Church and State was put into the constitution because they didn't want a Church State like they had in England, a church run by the government. It was never intended to be used to remove God from the government. The founding fathers founded this nation to be one nation under God. Now people want to say that God isn't part of the country. I'll tell you this though, If you remove God, this country will go down the tubes.





Yes well said.

[JC Denton]

Yes well said.
Are you done grave digging all over our forums?